Comments on The Galaxy Express: Branding Science Fiction Romance, Part III

Hi, Valerie, and welcome aboard! do you include a...

2009-11-16T21:28:35.827-05:00

Hi, Valerie, and welcome aboard!

do you include a science fiction series that includes a love story that is incidental to the main story

If it's incidental, then my approach has been to tag/define such a story as "romantic sf" plus whatever other tags apply. Or maybe "sf with romantic subplot." I agree about the love interests in the Liaden Universe as being super romantic, but I'm wondering if that might mean super romantic *for science fiction*.

However, I can also think of a romantic suspense or two that had less romance in it or maybe the equivalent of Lee & Miller's novels. All of which points to the importance, as BevBB pointed out, of being specific, and drawing upon elements a reader can see only after having read a story in its entirety.

How erotic must a story be to be SFR?

A story can be totally sweet to qualify (e.g., Pauline B. Jones' THE KEY). I don't think the issue is the heat level vs. the romance being a main or significant focus of the story. If the romance can be removed without affecting the story's outcome, then it's probably romantic SF.

I should qualify that for TGE, I blog about stories ranging from romantic SF to romances with SF elements. But I think most readers would consider romantic sf in terms of a science fiction story first and foremost. Some books blur the boundaries, though.

Ok, I just discovered this blog. My question is, d...

2009-11-16T08:58:48.182-05:00

Ok, I just discovered this blog. My question is, do you include a science fiction series that includes a love story that is incidental to the main story? Personally, I like the old-timey Harlequins and Regencies and, of course, Jane Austin's Pride and Prejudice, so I find the love interests in Lee and Miller's Liaden Universe series to be super romantic. How erotic must a story be to be SFR? Does the Prince of Mercenaries qualify since the main character meets, falls in love, etc., with no actual bedroom scenes and very little focus on the relationship?

Here's some info about tagging.

2009-11-04T16:20:04.241-05:00

Here's some info about tagging.

By tagging at Amazon do you all mean leaving revie...

2009-11-04T12:57:19.377-05:00

By tagging at Amazon do you all mean leaving reviews for books we've read?

I actually have a space western started in a file ...

2009-11-03T16:05:45.614-05:00

I actually have a space western started in a file somewhere.

I can wait. *checks watch*

;-)

BevBB I agree ratings like sizzling don't help. So...

2009-11-03T15:39:04.120-05:00

BevBB
I agree ratings like sizzling don't help. Some epubs will have an explanation for their terms, but who can remember all those. And since erotic romance runs the gamut from explicit vanilla m/f on up the line, it would be nice to have some details.

I'm thinking of having a heat level explanation somewhere on my website, a blurb to describe the 'hot' scenes in my own work.

Cowboys in space...sigh..Firefly. Gone too soon.

I actually have a space western started in a file somewhere. The dialogue is tricky. Requires alot of Lonesome Dove note taking.

Sci fi romances are closer to paranormal romance t...

2009-11-02T21:11:34.364-05:00

Sci fi romances are closer to paranormal romance than they are to Texas cowboy romance.

Melissa, exactly. Thanks for visiting! And hey, if you put a Texas cowboy in space I'm so there.

there was nothing in the description to give a heads up about those stories being in that anthology

To respond to your comment in a general sense, BevBB, I find I need to do a lot of research for this blog since I'm trying to track down stories that are frequently off the beaten path (not complaining, just observing). Anything that "clues" me in to the existence of SFR stories is really helpful.

Elise, good point regarding stuff that's hard to classify. It's yet another reason why word of mouth is so important.

This is a great discussion--thanks again to all.

With regards to tagging, sometimes it's hard to fi...

2009-11-02T16:38:59.906-05:00

With regards to tagging, sometimes it's hard to find the lines. Some things are clear - is there spanking or not? - but other things aren't so clear. Example: m/m. I have read a number of stories where there is STRONG tension, maybe even a little non-overt sexual contact, and those are hard to classify. Or stories with overtly gay or bi characters who have their sex behind closed doors. Should it be tagged as m/m - even if there isn't any actual sex? And a lot of publishers are really fuzzy on this, just as they are on heat ratings.

We were doing key words/tagging for our upcoming release (ours is contemporary, but Ella Drake's story is SFR) and we ran into this problem. Our main couple is pretty easy to tag - firefighter, m/f, pretty vanilla. But there's a secondary couple, a m/m couple who feature PROMINENTLY in the story. Their gayness is integral to the tale. Do we include that? We elected not to because it was secondary characters who never have real contact on-screen, but it made Emily Ryan-Davis (my co-author) and I really think about how tagging might work for something like that.

That was supposed to be "now such a strong advocat...

2009-11-02T16:11:14.900-05:00

That was supposed to be "now such a strong advocate of tagging"

Sheesh. ;)

I just posted something on my blog that might of i...

2009-11-02T16:09:11.670-05:00

I just posted something on my blog that might of interest regarding this entire branding discussion both in regards to labeling in general and tagging in particular. It involves an experiment I did back in the spring tracking the way one of my favorite books, which also happens to be considered a futuristic/erotic romance (and is even described as a sci-fi romance by some) is listed by various booksellers.

Let's just say I had a specific question in mind, it was an extremely enlightening exercise and why I'm not such a strong advocate of tagging. The link is: http://bevsbooks.com/notes/?p=406

Yes, but ratings have their own limitations. For e...

2009-11-02T14:04:11.436-05:00

Yes, but ratings have their own limitations. For example, what does "sizzling" mean when we're talking about whether or not people could be engaging in bondage, anal or oral sex, with or without multiple partners thrown in for good measure? Which one of those exactly is the reader supposed to expect in a sizzling hot book because that's a common erotic romance style rating?

Without specific tags, there's no way of knowing.

Quote: 'What might warn one person off, just might...

2009-11-02T13:10:02.643-05:00

Quote: 'What might warn one person off, just might be what another person is looking for. Information is power. Buying power for one thing. Selling for another.'

Exactly! And with spending money tight, as it is for many of us, I often don't feel like taking chances on a new author. If a new author is in my library, I'll go there first, or the UBS. And Ebooks are non returnable, so then I'm searching around the net for reviews before I spend my $5.

Hmmm. Gave me an idea for my website, a rating.

I really do like when an erotic romance has the ta...

2009-11-02T12:17:51.019-05:00

I really do like when an erotic romance has the tag breakdown. I was familiar with that from fanfic and it makes a reader decision easier. Maybe a reader is looking for 'spanking' or maybe they hate it-great to know either way.

It never ceases to amaze me that the people who read and write romances can't seem to deal with cataloging the most intimate aspect of that relationship in the books. o.O

Seriously, though, I don't know how many times in recent months (years?) online when I've brought this tagging business up, people will automatically jump to thinking it's about posting warnings and alerts on book descriptions and that's not it at all. It's about the simple cataloging of what's in the books across the board so readers can find what they want to read. Period. Just like what libraries have been doing all along. What might warn one person off, just might be what another person is looking for. Information is power. Buying power for one thing. Selling for another.

Prime example - last year I bought an anthology of erotic romances that featured shifters. Anyway, the description of the anthology was good but turns out that at least one, possibly two, of the stories were male on male. Now, I don't anything against reading those - I simply like to know ahead of time that's what I'm getting and there was nothing in the description to give a heads up about those stories being in that anthology. There were also no tags with the description either.

Fairly or not, readers tend to remember those authors and definitely those publishers that mislead them. At the very least, we will double and triple-check if necessary before getting burned again. Sometimes we will avoid certain "places" altogether. It just depends upon how annoyed the situation makes us or which hot button it pushes. Some are admittedly hotter than others.

The point is that any genre/sub-genre covers a lot of territory and not all readers define them the same way. So when tags (keywords) aren't used to further clue readers into what's actually inside the books most readers are at best left floundering trying to find a book they really want and at worst left wondering quite frankly if a bait and switch just happened to them when they end up with the wrong book.

Not good.

Give them information followed by good stories, though, and you have some very happy readers who will sing your praises to high heaven. And usually do. At least online, anyway.

I meant to add(swine flu has rotted my brain) that...

2009-11-02T11:18:07.770-05:00

I meant to add(swine flu has rotted my brain) that I think the readers will come mainly from the paranormal romance readers who fueled the paranormal market in the past few years. Since paranormal moved from vampires and werewolves to all manner of fantastic beings and magical happenings, I think readers are more likely to try something different--but not too different. Sci fi romances are closer to paranormal romance than they are to Texas cowboy romance.

I really do like when an erotic romance has the ta...

2009-11-02T10:49:18.261-05:00

The thing about tagging is to remember to keep it ...

2009-11-01T21:28:55.202-05:00

The thing about tagging is to remember to keep it real and honest. Don't over or under do it. Almost as frustrating as no information is for it to be wrong. One of my big pet peeves nowadays is when erotic romances, whatever their other themes or genres, don't get tagged or even described with the types of sexual situations found in them. That's just odd. Sizzling to sweet just doesn't cut it anymore when we could be dealing with reader comfort zones - or the lack thereof - in terms of menages, oral, anal, voyuerism or whatever might be in these books.
I heartily agree.
As an erotic romance author, it ends up being a lose-lose if the reader is deceived about the heat level. And I don't want a reader who hates my book for being what it is.
It's in my best interests to let the reader know EXACTLY what's behind the cover. So one of the first things that my books should be tagged is "Erotic Romance".

BevBB, will you marry me? Heh, I almost feel lik...

2009-11-01T15:03:08.906-05:00

BevBB, will you marry me?

Heh, I almost feel like I already have what with the way I seem to comment more here than on my own blog nowadsys. And seeing how much I've linked back here lately. Good stuff. :D

The thing about tagging is to remember to keep it real and honest. Don't over or under do it. Almost as frustrating as no information is for it to be wrong. One of my big pet peeves nowadays is when erotic romances, whatever their other themes or genres, don't get tagged or even described with the types of sexual situations found in them. That's just odd. Sizzling to sweet just doesn't cut it anymore when we could be dealing with reader comfort zones - or the lack thereof - in terms of menages, oral, anal, voyuerism or whatever might be in these books.

The same thing holds true whenever one is talking about educating/informing potential readers about new-to-them sub-genres - be honest but be as complete as possible. Think of all the themes and lingo that's already used in both romance and science fiction by the fans to describe the books. Check existing theme/topic lists on well-known reader/review sites if you need to create cheat sheets to start with and be consistent with terms.

But don't fake it or force it because readers do not like to be led astray. They simply want to find books they like.

@Marilyn--There's the "Proud Passenger of the Gala...

2009-11-01T13:11:46.567-05:00

@Marilyn--There's the "Proud Passenger of the Galaxy Express" rocket icon that I--and I think several others--have posted on their blogs with a link to this blog. Maybe we need to do a campaign to get the word out to more blogs about posting the icon and link.

We, as frequest flyers on TGE can also get word out about the blog through word of mouth. I can't tell you how many times I mentioned TGE and passed out the web address at RWA. I know Donna was one of those I pitched. *waves to Donna*

I love the SFR author link and I'll be putting one up on Spacefreighters very soon.

I also LOVE the tag party idea! Let's do it! Maybe they can be scheduled on a regular (monthly, quarterly) basis? I'd love to see a tag party take place before the holiday season to help SFR book sales.

A blog like this that's fan-based rather than auth...

2009-11-01T10:57:24.337-05:00

A blog like this that's fan-based rather than author-spam based does wonders for SFR. Every author has to pimp her books these days, unfortunately, so much of it is ignored.

Heather, you need to make a banner we can post on our sites to build up your popularity.

Yay new authors. Please do email me. I'll help a...

2009-11-01T00:35:49.895-04:00

Yay new authors. Please do email me. I'll help any way I can.

Mfitz, you go, girl. I believe there is a largely...

2009-10-31T23:21:50.830-04:00

Mfitz, you go, girl.

I believe there is a largely untapped audience for SFR in other countries

I'm continuing to write my SFR column for Germany romance magazine Loveletter and so far readers of the magazine are interested.

Unfortunately, they can't read most of the books right now. That takes agents & publishers making foreign rights sales. But you never know--SFR could take off in other countries first.

Kimber An, that is so cool about your daughter’s costume.

Perhaps erotic sci fi will pave a path as well.

Jennifer, spot on. Paranormal and erotic romance are about niche genres breaking out. It can take years and even decades, but it can happen.

as has been raised, there's no one consistent place to find futuristics/SFR/RSF.

Exactly. And I think your idea, Linnea, about authors linking to other authors is fantastic. If both readers and authors organize a “one-stop” SFR community, that’s a significant way to counteract the lack of consistency—at least online.

In fact, I recently discovered a debut SFR author and so I immediately let her know about our efforts. I don’t mind searching for this type of information (and the thrill of discovery is pretty cool), but I worry we’re not visible enough if new authors don’t even know we’re here. The community could operate in part as not only a resource for readers but also a promotion vehicle for authors.

@Donna Fingers crossed for you!

MC, thanks for your kind words and I so appreciate your thoughts—and your de-lurking!

And what BevBB said. Readers can’t embrace what they can’t find or don’t know about. SFR is not for all romance readers, but once we are able to clearly define the appeal I think many more will be interested than are currently.

I recently read a quote by Clare Willis in RT Book Reviews about paranormal romances. She said: “It’s a romantic smorgasboard—vampires, ghosts, fairies, werewolves—anything goes as long as it’s sexy!”

Admittedly, I groaned a little because I’m not keen on simplifying hybrid genres or selling SFR on the sexay quotient. However, Willis managed to capture paranormal romance in a convincing way, and it made me wonder how I might characterize SFR in such a fashion.

@Jess I sent a new author your way and suggested she email you. Oooh, and tag parties—me like the sound of that. I’ll bring the cheese dip.

Sell those unique features that readers are interested in be they cyborgs or pirates or whatever under the umbrella of the overall label. Sneak under their defenses with things you know they already like.

BevBB, will you marry me?

@AnnaM Keyword Tool might be of help.

We should have Amazon tag parties, where we all lo...

2009-10-31T22:27:21.965-04:00

We should have Amazon tag parties, where we all log in to Amazon, pick out our favorite SFR books, and tag the heck out of them to move them up listings.

Well, if you're truly going to make it a party, don't just stick with Amazon. Hit all the major booksellers online, including the solely ebook ones. For one thing, a lot of people recently have shifted loyalty away from Amazon because of their crazy policies. I tend to focus on B&N and Books-A-Million nowadays, the latter primarily because I have a BAM within reasonable driving distance.

Plus, I'd hit the online library programs, too.

We should have Amazon tag parties, where we all lo...

2009-10-31T22:07:48.927-04:00

We should have Amazon tag parties, where we all log in to Amazon, pick out our favorite SFR books, and tag the heck out of them to move them up listings.

I love the links pages to other SFR authors. I've ...

2009-10-31T17:42:44.371-04:00

I love the links pages to other SFR authors. I've found several from Linnea's site.

I'm now wondering if there's a way to find out the number of Google hits specific tag words get--as a means to gauge how many people are interested in specific topics? Don't know if the results would be too broad to apply to book purchases, but surely there's a way to filter the results.

Yes. I do this. Like putting a word like "intergal...

2009-10-31T14:56:45.797-04:00

Yes. I do this. Like putting a word like "intergalactic" in the tagline & blurb. You know it's going to be a story set in space.

Yes, exactly. It's the difference between old-style brick and mortar shelving thinking and new-style electronic "shelving" thinking. You'd be surprised at how many times over the last year I've had to explain on forums the distinction between categories (genres) and tags (keywords) to people. For the most part, people are still stuck in a pre-Internet mentality. Which is okay, but, you know what? Cross-referencing existed before the Internet, people. Keywords and card catalogs did, too.

We just didn't have the technology to access the information in them at the tips of our fingertips. We do now.

I'm not saying genres and sub-genres are irrelevant or will ever be, but what I am saying is that they're not the only way readers find books. If anything they're a starting point but certainly not the ending point. I mean, just because many of you like science fiction, does that mean you buy every single science fiction novel published?

Or do you pick and choose? Even with sub-genres, how do you make a final selection between the types of books you like to read? Don't readers also find books by the themes (read keywords or tags) that they like to read? The more specific the better? Character types, plot points, special interests, whatever.

You want to sell science fiction romances to readers? Sell those unique features that readers are interested in be they cyborgs or pirates or whatever under the umbrella of the overall label. Sneak under their defenses with things you know they already like.

Not the other way around.