Comments on THE GALAXY EXPRESS: Heroine Pilots in SF: Too Many or Not Enough?

I've read Dark Space and Chaos Space a twice n...

2009-08-27T13:23:05.635-04:00

I've read Dark Space and Chaos Space a twice now.
I think these critisisms are a load of crap and just a bit sexist!
Mira was an exception, all the other biozone pilots were men.
The central characters in my novel are women and yes, have piloting skills.
The idea of a femal character that is the focus of a story comes naturally to me, just about all the women in my family were strong, capable people, whilst just about all the males I grew up with were useless drunken fuck ups!
I would have thought in this day and age female characters should be more than just window dressing just waiting for a chance to twist thier ankles!
To make it sound like Marrianne De Pierres' et al, have conjured up a cliche is just whack!

Late to the party again. sigh What a great d...

2009-08-25T22:05:06.156-04:00

Late to the party again. *sigh*

What a great discussion. I have a couple of novels with female pilots, so it was interesting to hear (and mull) all the different comments and opinions.

I haven't read the series in a couple of years...

2009-08-24T10:11:58.393-04:00

I haven't read the series in a couple of years so I may misremember.

Yes, it was relating to the psi ability. And it was Soz's whole family, not just her.

Her family were the "Royals" who controlled and manipulated a psychic communications web that glued all of human society together. Others could be made able to work inside it, but her family was somehow genetically linked to the alien artifacts that created the communications web. They were, in essence, the keys that unlocked the technology. But Soz was just a regular pilot, albeit a very talented one (ala Kirk) who made rank fast and young. I thought her "gift" lay in strategy or something. I can't remember now.

The web played a part in interstellar travel too, I believe. Without it I believe they were flying blind if they wanted to go long distances.

Anna (and anyone else who can answer this for me):...

2009-08-23T23:19:57.444-04:00

Anna (and anyone else who can answer this for me):

I've read the first three in the Asaro series (PRIMARY INVERSION, CATCH THE LIGHTNING, and THE LAST HAWK), and I remember the implant, but for some reason, I'm remembering there was something really important about genetics too and I may be merging the two in my poor brain. Was the importance of genetics relating to the psi ability? And did the psi ability have anything to do with piloting?

Shara, I got the distinction in your posts. I r...

2009-08-23T12:49:15.902-04:00

Shara,

I got the distinction in your posts.

I read a lot of SF and have branched into SFR in the last few years, but I *haven't* read many novels with the "special talent" for piloting so I didn't even know there were a lot out there. Most of the books with female pilots that I've read were the Starbuck variety--Linnea Sinclair's books for example. Personally I didn't think Catherine Asaro's characters (Soz) had that special talent since they were all (male and female) enhanced with implants to be pilots.

I haven't read the other books mentioned.

Maybe I just haven't gotten to them yet. I do have Grimspace in my TBR Room.

Anna (or Anonymous): But the real question I was ...

2009-08-22T23:32:55.707-04:00

Anna (or Anonymous):

But the real question I was asking, the one I hope I clarified in comments, wasn't why women writers are attracted to writing female pilots, but female pilots with this SPECIAL CRAZY TALENT to do so. Rather than of the Starbuck variety, a pilot who just happens to be female.

There's a huge difference in the two, even though I'm having a helluva time making that clear. :)

Hmm, well, SOMEone has to fly the ship, don't ...

2009-08-22T18:40:27.575-04:00

Hmm, well, SOMEone has to fly the ship, don't they?

I have noticed a lot of female starship pilots between novels and TV but I just figure it's about darned time. LOL. I don't mind them. I wish there were more novels starring Enlisted folks though.

Anna

calico-reaction asked why women writers would be attracted to writing female pilots. Maybe it's the freedom and power envolved in flying. They can go anywhere they want if they fly/own their own ship. Or they can be in control of a ship if it's not theirs.

That review you quoted Shara, it was actua...

2009-08-20T22:32:32.865-04:00

That review you quoted

Shara, it was actually the footnote that I found first, and that interested me the most. I google like there's no tomorrow when I'm developing features :P. I found your post while doing some research for something else, and tucked it away for future reference.

Aren't readers funny? While your brain was flipping, mine didn't even make the connection. Patterns like that fascinate me--especially since they aren't planned. The synergy, as Jess referred to it.

Hi, Heather! Thanks for responding. :) One thing ...

2009-08-20T22:07:27.652-04:00

Hi, Heather! Thanks for responding. :)

One thing that's been BEATEN into my head as a writer (not a published one, mind you, but one who's learning) in workshops over and over is to know your genre. While two writers doing similar things at the same moment can't help what they're doing, a different writer, who's still developing, can know his/her genre and allow that to influence his/her writing.

A writer can say, "Oooh, look at all the writers who've done A! I'm doing to subvert it a bit, so it's similar but different!"

Or a writer can say, "You know what, I like this trend, and I don't care if the target audience has seen it a BILLION times. I'm going to do it and have fun, darn it!"

It all depends on the writer and his/her execution, and I can enjoy both versions, depending on the execution. And to be honest, I'm not really tired of this trend, I just read a bunch of different authors at once and my brain was flipping out.

That review you quoted, that was one of my worse rants. I'm surprised you stumbled upon it to be honest, but nothing should surprise me at this stage. :)

BTW: the covers are quite lovely. The cover of the MdP was what drew me to the title to begin with. :)

And I'm going to start signing in under my name instead of my LJ account. The LJ account, on this blog, doesn't show the real name, so there's no use in it.

Ms. de Pierres, thanks for commenting. I endeavor ...

2009-08-20T21:53:51.743-04:00

Ms. de Pierres, thanks for commenting. I endeavor to leave no SFR stone unturned!

Hi, Calico! Thanks for stopping by to comment.

And if she must be different than your average pilot, why must it be this innate, genetic ability to fly ships?Because the target audience has seen it before.

However, vampires are still going strong, and obviously, there's a strong contingent of readers who don't care

I think you answered your own question! For me, it's not the particular job a character has, it's the execution. Even so, I hear you on not getting burnt out on a trend. What's great about SF is one has a selection of wildly different stories from the various subgenres, and perhaps because of this the tolerance for repetition is lower--we have an expectation of being presented with the unexpected in each successive story, not more of the same.

I'm just not sure we're there yet with regards to heroine pilots with innate abilities.

writer will need to be aware of what's out there

Except they can't know if the other books are being written at about the same time. Yet the onus is on authors to do something different, unique, and refreshing with such characters, even if there are a hundred other similar characters already in existence.

Let's go subvert a few

@Lexi I like the way you talk.

Lexy, that's a good point. When I originally w...

2009-08-20T21:47:27.050-04:00

Lexy, that's a good point. When I originally wrote the rant last September, I'd unfairly singled out the heroines who have this talent, even though the very authors I cited also have heroes who can do the same thing. To be honest, even then the trend (I shouldn't have called it a cliche even then, but I was ranting and not thinking as clearly and objectively as I should, a lesson I've learned from since) didn't bother me, it was the book in that particular review that set me off. It was a timing thing.

And really, it's a question of curiosity for me from a writing standpoint: why are women writers (I'm not saying male writers don't do it, I just haven't read those stories and therefore can't compare) attracted to this particular talent in SF? And I still wonder why being a pilot just isn't enough? After all, Kara Thrace, aka Starbuck, on BSG was a fantastic character, but she didn't have some freaky genetic ability that allowed her to fly (no, Ron Moore did something else to make her uber-special, but we won't go there). It's a question I'd like to explore one day when I've got the time and patience, as it's a learning tool for me.

Also a learning tool has been this particular post. While my review style has changed since last September, when this review was written (I used to review books as soon as I finished them, now I'm waiting a few days, if not a week, to let the stories settle and so I can figure out what I want to say), I do need to remember that when I do feel the urge to nitpick for whatever reason, I need to be absolutely clear what I'm picking on. I wasn't clear in this case, and I'm sorry for that misunderstanding.

I think if you're going to call out a specific...

2009-08-20T20:28:57.022-04:00

I think if you're going to call out a specific trope that has nothing to do with the gender of the main character but everything to do with 'innate abilities,' then you shouldn't name only female main characters as following this trope or single out female MCs as worthy of criticism.

There are a TON of overused main character clichés in genre fiction. They're clichés because people people seem to like them. There are things that can fix that problem, like inventing new ones.

Until gender parity is achieved in SF&F (and really, we are SO not there yet, much less even *off the ground* in terms of transgendered people, hello!) I'm not inclined to see tropes as gendered problems unless they're actually, you know, *sexist.*

There are plenty of sexist tropes and clichés out there. Let's go subvert a few.

Oh, and question for NathalieGray: "Cliched ...

2009-08-19T22:18:51.781-04:00

Oh, and question for NathalieGray:

"Cliched does not exist"

It doesn't? Aside from my lack of accent mark, my dictionary says it does, as an adjective, which is what I'm using it as. Your comment disturbs me, as I like to correct errors in my posts, but since I'm not using it as a noun, then I don't see my error.

Maybe I'm too tired for grammar tonight...

Wow, I don't check my email for a week and loo...

2009-08-19T22:12:01.210-04:00

Wow, I don't check my email for a week and look what pops up!

I should clarify a few things about my comments:

1) I don't mind female pilots. Bring them on.
2) It's the "innate ability" that's starting to drive me bonkers.
3) I never meant to suggest that any of these authors were copying each other. I'm very well aware that people tend to come up with similiar ideas aroundabouts the same time, and it was never my intention to point fingers and say, "Ooh, this author copied this author!" I don't believe that, and frankly, I never will.

To be more eloquent, minus the numbered lists: if you don't want to use the term cliche, I will say it's a trend: Kay Kenyon's SEEDS OF TIME features a heroine who has the innate/genetic ability to pilot starships, but I didn't add that one to my list because I haven't read it and I don't know how it works--I'm basing that off the blurb, which could be wrong. But that one is not SFR. But I'm noticing that the women writers I'm reading (if there's men doing this with male pilots, I haven't come across it, so please, point me in the direction!) are all doing very similar things. I know they aren't copying each other, and in the case of Asaro, Aguirre, and Landon, I enjoy their works of fiction and I'm still reading their books. It didn't hit me as a peeve until I came across a book I didn't like (sorry, MdP, and I should further point out the reason I didn't like it had little to nothing to do with the genetic, innate ability, that just became something to dwell on) that I sat back and wondered WHY we keep seeing heroines who aren't just PILOTS, but are EXTRA-SPECIAL and have the innate, genetic ability to fly ships and/or navigate hyperspace. I'm reading it all at once it seems and in some ways, it's like vampire fiction. For a while, I didn't hear much about it, and now it's everywhere.

My question, and this isn't necessarily to the authors named above, but is more general: if you have a heroine in an SF novel, who is a pilot, why can't she just be a pilot? And if she must be different than your average pilot, why must it be this innate, genetic ability to fly ships? Why not something else? It's a question worth considering for any writer, male or female, because it's reached a point, in my little, possibly imaginary, world, that said writer will need to be aware of what's out there and what their target audience is reading, and then really consider how different they want to make their heroine (or hero!) who has the genetic/innate ability to pilot starships/navigate hyperspace. Because the target audience has seen it before.

However, vampires are still going strong, and obviously, there's a strong contingent of readers who don't care. I just don't want to get burnt out on a trend, however coincidental it might be.

I do hope this comment makes sense. I apologize if that review--written a while ago, I might add--made it appear as if I were accusing any of the authors of stealing each other's ideas. That was never my intent.

Yet novels are often about people with special tal...

2009-08-19T00:33:33.561-04:00

Yet novels are often about people with special talents or abilities. There's drama built into that, especially if there are barriers between the talented person and what she could do with her talent.

Angelia, you wouldn't say the skill sets you mention are enough to set the people who have them apart? Even if there's nothing mystical about them? Most of us couldn't even try to pilot anything. That's maybe another explanation for the appeal of pilots as characters—they're inherently independent, inherently wanderers, and they aren't like most of us.

I'm not crazy about the whole "innate abi...

2009-08-18T16:42:45.839-04:00

I'm not crazy about the whole "innate ability to do anything" idea.

I like my female pilots and captains: Brede Shipspouse, Helva the brainship, Margaret Alexander the Captain of the USS Saratoga (NCC-1867), to have worked for their piloting ability.

There can be skill sets that are innate, such as splendid hand-eye coordination (including the ability to--while drunk--stand on your head and play ring-toss) but piloting itself has to be a huge collection of such skills.

And just because you can fly a single-seat ship or a freights doesn't mean you can fly a capital ship. Yes, same idea, but different skills. Like driving a car and driving a semi, both are driving, but they are different.

But that's me so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Great posts everyone. I've been AWOL because ...

2009-08-18T12:31:51.480-04:00

Great posts everyone. I've been AWOL because of "interesting times" on my hill, and am now playing catch-up. One thing that I don't believe that I saw mentioned is that many of the SFR authors who write about heroine pilots are themselves pilots. Where is the cliche in writing what you know? Are these real-world women pilot/authors cliches?

Well, are we counting all of Sue Grant's pilot...

2009-08-18T11:37:15.050-04:00

Well, are we counting all of Sue Grant's pilots? I think she's earned the right to write about female pilots.

As for Grimspace and Hidden Worlds, I believe that's called synergy? There's a phenomenon of two writers writing a seemingly unique concept at the same time without either knowing what the other is doing. It happens all the time. I'd hardly call that a trend.

What I think it points out more than anything is how few books are in this subgenre, if you can group three or four together and call that a cliche.

Like Writer and Cat said, there are only so many j...

2009-08-18T08:43:52.625-04:00

Like Writer and Cat said, there are only so many jobs to have on a small craft. If it's a small enough ship, "pilot" may be the only job. Why not have the pilot be a woman?

However, in all honesty...
I did note the similarity between Grimspace and The Hidden Worlds & it's not that the two protagonists are women, it's that they both have a special ability for a specific kind of travel that they were born with (not the same as the Force, BTW, because having the Force only made Luke & Anakin better pilots, not the only ones who could have those types of jobs).

Anyway, I noted it, but it didn't detract from the stories, which were both unique. The heroines themselves are very different, so the similarity got lost. In Grimspace, Jax had been celebrated for her ability and became a bit of a celebrity. In Hidden Worlds, Linnea had basically the opposite status.

To me, the books we're discussing are showing the problems and social impacts of keeping these jobs in an elitist status. So, not cliché.

The bottom line for me is...
I don't care if it's cliché or not. Give me more!

One of the major appeals of SFR to readers, I b...

2009-08-17T19:00:11.914-04:00
One of the major appeals of SFR to readers, I believe, is this cultural evolution.

Hear, hear!

Oh, Tez, I forgot about Leela! I really should do a post on Futurama, eh?

fighter pilots are statistically more likely to father girls than boys

Fascinating.

Regarding the issue of "the right breeding" in THE HIDDEN WORLDS, my take is that there's an underlying commentary about how backwards that attitude is and how in this universe, it could mean the death and destruction of millions if allowed to continue. Part of Linnea Kiaho's fight is not only the enemy but also against elitism among her own race. Additionally, those with the "right breeding" have certain reasons for maintaining the status quo. Basically, I felt as though it was believable given the backstory provided. Anyone else's mileage may vary.

That said, if Kristin Landon hadn't explained all of the sociopolitical/cultural reasons behind the "right breeding" issue, I'd have been pretty dang annoyed.

Kristin, I don't think anyone believes the authors influenced one another in any way. Pure coincidence. A pattern was detected, is all. Each book was fresh enough for me that like I blogged, I didn't even notice the similarity! And...what Writer and Cat said.

And if another book came out with such a heroine, heck yeah, I'd read it.

Lisa, well said.

Liana, my bad--"innate" talent refers to a pilot's biological/psi/bio-engineered ability to navigate a starship through hyperspace.

Ilona, exactly.

Nathalie, that's the part that made me go, huh? Would Ms. White have had the same reaction if she read five books in a row about male pilots? It's one thing to say one is tired of pilots with innate talents to navigate starships vs. singling them out according to gender.

Hi Heather, as you might have guessed, there is n...

2009-08-17T18:39:56.805-04:00
Hi Heather,

as you might have guessed, there is not much that I agreed with in the review that you mentioned. :)

Having a female protagonist with the ability to pilot an organic ship is hardly a plot device. In fact, in the case of Dark Space, it is integral to one of the main themes of the book - repression.

Thank you for bringing this up.

best
Marianne de Pierres

Just as an aside, those two covers are MIGHTY FINE...

2009-08-17T18:01:13.126-04:00
Just as an aside, those two covers are MIGHTY FINE!

The bit that made me go "hey!" was this:...

2009-08-17T18:00:31.850-04:00
The bit that made me go "hey!" was this:

"a cliched [sic] convention" First, it's cliché, not cliched, because the first is already in its past participle/adjective form. Cliched does not exist.

But that's a bit of a rant. Pardon me.

Why is a cliché? Is it so hard to believe a lot of women could be pilots? If a lot of the male protagonists were pilots (and a lot of them *are*), would someone say "damn, lots a guys pilots, eh". I don't think anyone would notice. But because it's gals who are pilots in some SFR books, someone calls it a "convention". Because it HAS to be a tool, right, it can't just be because it's a cool actiony job for a SFR heroine or something. And then it's also a cliché, because, again it can't be plausible, so many female pilots. It has to be a PLOY.

Yes, it bugs me that folks would pick on stuff like that. How many years, decades, CENTURIES have we endured where the main protagonist was a guy (pilot, lawyer, doctor), always the top dog with the top job, with the female sidekick as parure, nothing more than window dressing.

Just like in Star Trek, that doctor was supposed to be a woman, but noooo, they had to make her a nurse. Because making her a doctor would have been such a cliché convention...

Anne, I'm sorry to have given the wrong impres...

2009-08-17T16:53:08.102-04:00
Anne, I'm sorry to have given the wrong impression with my post. I was not bothered or offended one bit by your comments. You made an interesting point, Heather elaborated on it, and I was moved to respond. But out of interest in the topic, not because I've got a thin skin. Believe me, I don't.

A good conversation rarely involves everyone agreeing about everything!

Kristin, I'm sorry. My comment about your nove...

2009-08-17T16:02:53.992-04:00
Kristin, I'm sorry. My comment about your novel was poorly thought out. I could blame a bad weekend for my thoughtlessness, but the truth is that I should have been more careful. {apologetic smile}

Anne Elizabeth Baldwin