Comments on THE GALAXY EXPRESS: The Romance Heroine is Not a Side Dish

Oh, I've just got to jump in here and comment....

2009-08-30T00:45:11.529-04:00

Oh, I've just got to jump in here and comment.

Jess Granger said...

Ooh, I've got two comments on that. First "defanging". I think some people might accuse me of defanging Cyani, because at the end of the book she is happy with a role that is not "warrior."

When I read that, I was floored. You set Cyani up so perfectly as a battle-weary woman who just wanted to finish her duty and put it behind her. For me, someone who works with soldiers on a daily basis, I understand battle fatigue and the longing to return to the quiet simplicity of a "normal life." That's not "defanging," that's human nature. IMHO that reviewer was way off the mark.

Or perhaps "thud" as it hits the wall...

2009-08-29T18:48:22.815-04:00
Or perhaps "thud" as it hits the wall

Lol!

Oh, and as for the hero "defanging" an a...

2009-08-29T13:04:18.639-04:00
Oh, and as for the hero "defanging" an already strong heroine, if it's done to reveal an underlying vulnerability that she needs to come to grips with for some reason, that can work. Just don't keep her as a total woobie for him after the fact. Or if, as in Jess's book, *she* decides it's time to change, that's cool too.

I didn't read "average" as meaning t...

2009-08-29T12:53:08.573-04:00
I didn't read "average" as meaning the heroine was like me, living my oh so unglamorous life (geez, who'd want to read *that* story???) but that she didn't have any obvious extraordinary super skills/abilities. She goes about her business, whether it's as a toll taker or the pilot of a space ship (hey, even piloting can get tedious sometimes, can't it?) until something sends her in a different direction. If such a heroine is depicted, I fully expect her to come into her own as the story progresses. If she remains "average" and merely a means to reflect the hero's fabulousness, then the story is a dud. Or perhaps "thud" as it hits the wall : )

@Jennifer That's a good point about ordinary p...

2009-08-29T08:59:52.007-04:00
@Jennifer That's a good point about ordinary people achieving extraordinary things. However, from my average Jane perspective, being a colonist on another planet or a spaceship cargo transporter is quite out of the ordinary.

@Jennifer An "average" heroine who becom...

2009-08-28T19:16:29.607-04:00
@Jennifer An "average" heroine who becomes extraordinary is worlds apart from one who stays average throughout the story. Totally agree about Trilby.

Yeah, that is exactly what I was going for, or Max...

2009-08-28T17:16:47.608-04:00
Yeah, that is exactly what I was going for, or Maximus from Gladiator. He just wanted to be at peace, but the story didn't let him.

Oh, that also might explain why the book "Fin...

2009-08-28T16:45:43.176-04:00
Oh, that also might explain why the book "Finders Keepers" by Linnea Sinclair is one of my absolute favorites. The heroine, Trilby, is a cargo transporter-bottom of the food chain-nothing special. Yet, underneath, she is very, very unique. I love Trilby.

Mmmm well, I prefer to write a heroine that is &qu...

2009-08-28T16:43:12.042-04:00
Mmmm well, I prefer to write a heroine that is "average" but has to become extraordinary in the face of conflict.
For example; In "Taking Command", Daniella is a mechanic--ordinary, nothing special. But circumstances carry her into becoming something more, something amazing.
And in my upcoming Sci Fi Erotic Romance "Marked For Pleasure", Risha started life as a commonplace colonist, but her family's death sends her toward a destiny where she becomes trained, focused, a force to be reckoned with.
Perhaps that's why I write about military people in sci fi. In any military are ordinary people doing brave and extraordinary things.

I recall there was even a scene involving the h...

2009-08-28T16:04:50.849-04:00
I recall there was even a scene involving the hero restraining the heroine's arms.

This is one of my pet peeves. It throws me right out of a scene.

There's a difference between a hero taking control (defanging) and a heroine giving up control because it's part of her character's growth. In other words, she learns that maintaining too much control inhibits intimacy.

Yes, exactly.

Terrific comments, ladies! Thanks so much for your...

2009-08-28T15:08:07.597-04:00
Terrific comments, ladies! Thanks so much for your input.

Regarding the defanging, I read an SFR where the heroine was as extraordinary as the hero, but when it came to the sex scenes, the author constructed them so that the hero had all the control (like the Roarke & Eve scene Lisa mentioned). I recall there was even a scene involving the hero restraining the heroine's arms.

It was very jarring because the heroine was depicted as okay with giving up the control, when in fact all the other areas of her life demanded that she maintain control. It clearly was an attempt to play into the fantasy of the Alpha hero satisfying all her sexual needs--as though he knew what she needed better than she did. But it contradicted the heroine's character development! It was like the author was trying to have it both ways.

And no, Jess, it wasn't your book!!!

There's a difference between a hero taking control (defanging) and a heroine giving up control because it's part of her character's growth. In other words, she learns that maintaining too much control inhibits intimacy.

"I am thoroughly disappointed when a fantasti...

2009-08-28T14:34:16.786-04:00
"I am thoroughly disappointed when a fantastic heroine has to be "defanged" in order to fully engage in a relationship with the hero. As if a true hero would need to neutralize the power of a strong heroine in order to be in the "natural" control position."

Here, here!

"Her ending for me seemed suited to a warrior coming home from war. She's gone from sword to plowshare, but it was her choice to do so, not something the hero had to dominate out of her."

Oh, I like that.
;)

Jess-- I don't think you defang Cyani. How you...

2009-08-28T11:49:54.282-04:00
Jess-- I don't think you defang Cyani. How you describe her here reminds me a lot of Odysseus who just wanted to stop fighting and return home to his family. I profile a lot of kick-ass heroines, and I think that's fun, but what really matters is that the heroine is proactive. She knows what she wants and takes measures to get herself there. She might falter along the way either internally or externally, but she keeps on.

Ooh, I've got two comments on that. First &qu...

2009-08-28T11:23:54.342-04:00
Ooh, I've got two comments on that. First "defanging". I think some people might accuse me of defanging Cyani, because at the end of the book she is happy with a role that is not "warrior."

But the point of the book was that she never wanted to be a warrior, didn't identify herself as one, and really wanted to shirk the pain of war.

Her ending for me seemed suited to a warrior coming home from war. She's gone from sword to plowshare, but it was her choice to do so, not something the hero had to dominate out of her.

We'll find out later, she doesn't completely leave behind her old knowledge or talents. *wink*

And I have an interesting power dynamic in the second book as well. I had fun playing with a very very subtle dominance, because the heroine is one of these women who absolutely needs to know that the hero is her equal, because in the day to day context of their culture, he's not her equal and they both know it. He had a lot of fun proving otherwise, and as it turns out, she's turned on by that.

I agree with you. I don't like to see a powerful woman "broken".

We're not feisty horses dang it!

Heather said: In fact, my expectation for SFR i...

2009-08-28T11:01:51.121-04:00
Heather said: In fact, my expectation for SFR is that the heroine is going to be just as flashy and filling as the hero, if not more so in some stories.

I am thoroughly disappointed when a fantastic heroine has to be "defanged" in order to fully engage in a relationship with the hero. As if a true hero would need to neutralize the power of a strong heroine in order to be in the "natural" control position.

This bugs me to no end and is one of the motivators for my writing the Danger Gal blog where I can profile heroines who aren't defanged. I'm bored by that kind of power struggle between hero and heroine, and I think SFR allows for a broader and different conflict in this respect. However, it's not going away anytime soon, and even some of the best authors struggle with this power play issue.

Case in point, one of the reasons I didn't get past the first book in Nora Roberts' Eve Dallas series is because at the crux of the love story arc -- the first love scene -- Roarke had to be in charge no matter what that power play might cost Eve. This was evident in the line of dialogue he had, which was something like "You can't always be in control" while he's got her pinned to the bed, arms over her head.

That's not sexy to me. While I've loved some of Roberts' other books, what I would love to see in a story is the opposite: a strong hero character like Roarke showing that he knows one person can't always be in control. I would have found him much more interesting if he'd flipped over, Eve on top, with a comment that she can't always be in control. Because he's secure in himself he's able to be the first to step away from that and perceptive enough to realize Eve's need for it in that moment. That's the kind of hero I want to read about.

Many SFR stories take place in post-feminist societies and that's my reading preference. An examination of this power play issue could be presented in an SFR that deals with societies that are not post-feminist and I think that's obviously legitimate, even if it's not to my personal taste.

Usually I read through all the comments before pos...

2009-08-28T10:38:51.483-04:00
Usually I read through all the comments before posting my own thoughts, but on this I'm pretty clear in my opinion: I have zero interest in the "blank template heroine."

I am average, why would I want to read about what I see in the mirror every day? I read for escape, for adventure. I do sometimes put myself in the heroine's place, and when I do that I prefer to experience some hefty qualitiies I don't possess in my real life -- oh say like commanding my ownh starship or being some kind of supernatural being. I'm as much interested in the heroine's journey as the hero's. For so long a woman in any story has been an afterthought or there just to facilitate the hero's arc. The "blank template heroine" is just an elaboration on that -- she's a narrator not a participant with a story of her own.

I don't mind a supposedly "average" ...

2009-08-28T10:12:57.834-04:00
I don't mind a supposedly "average" heroine even in SFR, depending on how she's portrayed, especially if it leads to a kind of fish out of water tale. I like those. But she has to be smart and interesting and NOT passive and needing to be saved all the time.

{considering look} I'm better off if I don'...

2009-08-28T05:38:24.895-04:00
{considering look} I'm better off if I don't identify too strongly with the heroine. Even an "average Jane" of a heroine is going to be more independant, younger, and less handicapped than I am. That's just the way my life turned out. So I'm best off if I'm not tempted to compare myself to her, which I have to do to put myself in her shoes.

Ditto for the hero, except he might be a little older than me. I'm still better off not being tempted to compare myself to him. {Lop-sided Smile}

Anne Elizabeth Baldwin

A huge part of the appeal of SFR are the great, mu...

2009-08-28T00:10:49.224-04:00
A huge part of the appeal of SFR are the great, multi-dimensional heroines. Can't stand the 'blank template' heroine. I also can't stand the awesome hero. Booooring. I want them both to be fully realized, breathing, sweating, with a few zits or stretch marks (STAR KING by Susan Grant). I want them to grow and be transformed by the love of a good woman, or man or Vulcan or whatever. I want them to worry about their Furzels (GAMES OF COMMAND by Linnea Sinclair) and obsess over peanut butter and be terrified the one they love will reject them because of their cybernetic implants. Don't waste my time and don't wast my money (actually, I get books for free as a reviewer) with HALF a story, because that's what it is - HALF a story. A romance is about people coming together and I want to live and breathe the WHOLE story, not just part of it.

If the blank template heroine is popular in Paranormal Romance, then I think this another reasons SFR needs it's own identity.

I'm with you, the characters need to be fully ...

2009-08-27T22:17:04.393-04:00
I'm with you, the characters need to be fully fleshed out, not an open spot for me to drop myself in. Especially not in sci-fi.

I love tough heroines who can stand their ground and be special. Sometimes ordinary can be special. But that takes some talent on the part of the author.

Besides, the chemistry is so much better if the hero and heroine can go toe to toe in more ways than one.

I hate cardboard cutout characters. "I want...

2009-08-27T20:52:49.312-04:00
I hate cardboard cutout characters.

"I want to experience the heroine’s adventures along with her; I don’t want to be her."

This says it all.

Neither the hero nor the heroine of my upcoming ur...

2009-08-27T20:52:25.241-04:00
Neither the hero nor the heroine of my upcoming urban fantasy series, Blood Rights, is fully human. I didn't want her to be for the very reasons you talked about. She's a force to be reckoned with in her own right.

I'm proud to say my heroines have always been ...

2009-08-27T20:50:37.279-04:00
I'm proud to say my heroines have always been independant, and strong of will and mind, if not always of body (one is feisty, but too petite to be effective physical). And this is not to say they aren't flawed. But if we're writing for today's (and possibly tomorrow's)generation of women, I want my heroine to be someone that can inspire based on her actions, and not because she was able to "get the guy".

Linnea Sinclair's Hope's Folly has a heroi...

2009-08-27T20:43:55.255-04:00
Linnea Sinclair's Hope's Folly has a heroine who has meat on her bones and she has all the men who respect her and think she is attractive, especially the hero. She is smart, witty and can handle a gun well also.

That's what I think is so cool about different...

2009-08-27T20:41:25.868-04:00
That's what I think is so cool about different genres - you tend to find different types of characters dwelling in them. I think it's very cool that the heroes and heroines of SFR can stand on equal footing with their special abilities and independent kicking ass and taking names nature. I love a good kickass heroine as much as I love more plain/average heroines. It's all about what mood I'm in as a reader.

Comments on THE GALAXY EXPRESS: The Romance Heroine is Not a Side Dish

Oh, I've just got to jump in here and comment....

Or perhaps "thud" as it hits the wall...

Oh, and as for the hero "defanging" an a...

I didn't read "average" as meaning t...

@Jennifer That's a good point about ordinary p...

@Jennifer An "average" heroine who becom...

Yeah, that is exactly what I was going for, or Max...

Oh, that also might explain why the book "Fin...

Mmmm well, I prefer to write a heroine that is &qu...

I recall there was even a scene involving the h...

Terrific comments, ladies! Thanks so much for your...

"I am thoroughly disappointed when a fantasti...

Jess-- I don't think you defang Cyani. How you...

Ooh, I've got two comments on that. First &qu...

Heather said: In fact, my expectation for SFR i...

Usually I read through all the comments before pos...

I don't mind a supposedly "average" ...

{considering look} I'm better off if I don'...

A huge part of the appeal of SFR are the great, mu...

I'm with you, the characters need to be fully ...

I hate cardboard cutout characters. "I want...

Neither the hero nor the heroine of my upcoming ur...

I'm proud to say my heroines have always been ...

Linnea Sinclair's Hope's Folly has a heroi...

That's what I think is so cool about different...