Comments on THE GALAXY EXPRESS: All Paranormal Romances Are Not Created Equal

as a reader of what is broadly labeled scifi at B&...

2009-08-01T11:49:05.678-04:00

as a reader of what is broadly labeled scifi at B&N - i would love to see more sub genres within scifi....so i know where to go to find what i want at that time...now i have to wander thru scifi, mystery, romance, fiction and YA...i would prefer they all be grouped in the same general area and sorted down within that area....they do it for the serial books within scifi why cant they do it for all the other sub genres as well.

Jess, it isn't always a matter of setting not ...

2009-07-29T04:12:36.651-04:00

Jess, it isn't always a matter of setting not working for you. Sometimes it's a reflection of the universality of a story's topic. This example isn't science fiction, but John Steinbeck made that point in Burning Bright by deliberately swapping settings right inside the story. Act One is set in a circus; Act Two is set on a farm; Act Three, Scene One is set in a harbor, with tug boats and fishermen; and Act Three Scene Two is so generic, it fits all three preceding settings, and doubtlessly more besides. I read that book in high school at the urgings of my father, when a second teacher decided to study settings thru setting swaps. {Smile} Steinbeck worked the settings in thoroughly enough, I wouldn't have thought they were swappable if he hadn't demonstrated so clearly that they were. {Smile}

Lisa and Heather, the SFR novels I was thinking of that lack a strong what-if were published this decade. At least one of the authors probably would swear her story wasn't swappable, but I'd disagree. After reading Burning Bright, I don't think there are many stories that can't be swapped around. However, if a story has a central what-if, any setting swapping will stay in science fiction or fantasy, because those are the genres that ask "what if?" {Smile}

Susan, yes, I think that's what I mean. {SMILE}

Anne Elizabeth Baldwin

P.S. Sorry for the repost, but the first try was neither completely correct, nor complete. {Smile}

A.E.B.

2009-07-29T04:04:54.562-04:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

@Marilynne, While it's not true across the boa...

2009-07-28T21:38:32.461-04:00

@Marilynne, While it's not true across the board, I have seen submission guidelines and online comments by editors that use the paranormal catch-all. But you make a good point in that the real crux of the matter is the reader taste issue.

Cathy, I believe author Jacqueline Lichtenberg has written stories involving alien vampires...!

@Anne Your comments made me realize I wasn't as clear as I could have been in my post. I was thinking about the recent generation of SFRs (e.g., Catherine Asaro's ALPHA) as opposed to the 80s futuristics. But taken as a whole, you're right--there is dilution.

@Lisa Perseverance is key, exactly.

BevBB, You and Marilynne have both picked up on the subtext of my post. I agree the HEA has to be clear and I also have some other thoughts on the matter, but I'm going to hold off since I plan on doing a post about it.

Susan, did you see that recent post at Dear Author about alternate settings in historical romances? Very insightful discussion about that issue, and I think there's some overlap with SFR. I'll hunt down the link when I'm back from my trip.

Sharon, thanks for that link. Good to know.

BevBB, I would also add that persistence can include finding new and sometimes nontraditional ways of getting that story to readers. These days we have both print and digital choices. The increased opportunities can only help authors find their audiences.

I remember reading an interview a long time ago - ...

2009-07-28T18:42:50.930-04:00

I remember reading an interview a long time ago - on AAR maybe? - that when Julie Garwood submitted her first book to an agent she was completely surprised when it turned out it was a romance. As a reader I believe we'd all benefit if authors would simply write the best story they can and see where it takes them. You already know where your interests and passions lie in terms of storytelling. Follow them and see where they take you. You might be surprised at who will follow if you're passionate enough.

There is a post about genres and agent submissions...

2009-07-28T14:49:49.897-04:00

There is a post about genres and agent submissions on the BookEnds blog today. It speaks in more general terms, but I found it interesting:

"There’s often a lot of angst from authors about which genre their books might fall into and how to categorize a book when pitching to agents and editors. Let me tell you a little secret. This is not critical to the rejection or acceptance of your book. In fact, it barely matters."

http://bookendslitagency.blogspot.com/2009/07/genre.html

I wonder if there isn't some way such stories ...

2009-07-28T14:13:23.175-04:00

I wonder if there isn't some way such stories could be used to widen SFR's appeal. They ought to be easier for people who aren't used to stretching their minds around what-ifs to enjoy. That is, if readers open to that much science in their fiction could recognize the stories easily. I'm not sure how to pull that off. {Smile}

Great point, Anne!!

Just like I'm trying to use my American Civil War time travel to lure time travel lovers away from Scottish highland and Regency romances. Then maybe they'll be willing to try a straight Civil War historical romance.

I rarely like to get into the publishing questions...

2009-07-28T11:47:22.183-04:00

I rarely like to get into the publishing questions because after all I'm "just a reader" - I swear one day I'm going to start a website/forum under that domain ;) - but anyway, it seems to me the question that you should be asking, since publishers are seemingly well aware of what their audience wants, is "What keeps the average romance reader from wanting to read a science fiction romance?"

Now, since I'm not one of those readers because I like both science ficton in my romances and in movies and TV, I'm not sure what to tell you. OTOH, though, I don't read a lot of actual sci-fi books. And there's a reason for that. I've been burned by the ones that I've tried. It's the cardinal rule of romance thing. It's not about the settings or the background.

It's the HEA.

That one will get you every single time.

You think I'm kidding? How many sci-fi series on TV and movies don't have romantic happy endings for characters? Heck, half the time it's not even about the endings. It's about the ups and downs they go through to even save the world. It's an association that sticks in the minds of readers and makes them extra suspicious of the genre.

Sure I love sci-fi but even I'm picky as all get out about the books and authors I'm willing to take chances on in terms of SFR. Background, smackground. They have to prove to me that they're reliable in terms of the relationships inside the stories before I'm going to be loyal. I've been burned way too many times in the past by so-called "sci-fi" relationship hijinks.

Of course, again, that's just a long-time reader talking. :D

For what it's worth, I'm fine with the ter...

2009-07-28T10:29:38.174-04:00

For what it's worth, I'm fine with the term SFR, but as a writer I also appreciate the flexibility in the term "Speculative Romance."

Anne: RE: Your comment about "science fiction as setting" -- what Jess said. As a reader I'm not so much interested in that and it makes me think of 80s Futuristics.

Even though there's more opportunity for profit in the Romance genre, I've found the lack of interest in SF generally (let alone in combination with Romance) from agents and editors has prompted me to approach those agents/editors interested in SF, but who also might not mind some Romance.

It really does come down to finding that editor or agent who just responds to the unique mix of SF and R in your particular story.

That is a very astute observation, Anne. Coming a...

2009-07-28T08:41:43.059-04:00

That is a very astute observation, Anne.

Coming as a writer this makes me cringe though. If an author can switch setting without seriously changing the nature of the story, their setting isn't working hard enough for them.

That's true of any setting, historical, contemporary, whatever.

I know what kind of books you're talking about. I enjoy them too, but the depth is just not there.

{thoughtful look} I don't know about space vam...

2009-07-28T04:06:00.651-04:00

{thoughtful look} I don't know about space vampires, but perhaps some forms of gateway novels would help draw more readers in to SFR. {Smile}

I've been thinking about what Heather said about the lack of dilution in SFR. I don't agree entirely. I know of many SFR that are as rigorous as non-romatic science fiction. However, I've found a few SFR novels that are distinctly short on speculation. In trying to explain one to my father - a die-hard SF/F fan - I came up with the term "science fiction as setting." They're science fiction because if a story has space ships, space stations or space ports, aliens, and maybe a star gate or two, it's science fiction. However, when the stories lack a strong what-if or few from natural science, social science, or pseudoscience (like telepathy), it may not be difficult to switch to a realistic modern or historical setting. All it would take is a few changes in names, mode of transportation, and type of pinch-point along a route.

(I don't mean this as a criticism. Some of my favorite recent finds are science-fiction-as-setting SFRs. {Smile})

I wonder if there isn't some way such stories could be used to widen SFR's appeal. They ought to be easier for people who aren't used to stretching their minds around what-ifs to enjoy. That is, if readers open to that much science in their fiction could recognize the stories easily. I'm not sure how to pull that off. {Smile}

Anne Elizabeth Baldwin

Anyone have a space vampire romance in the works t...

2009-07-27T23:34:34.916-04:00

Anyone have a space vampire romance in the works that can be used to lure those pesky paranormal readers into our neck of the woods? (pun not intended : ) )

I experimented with different approaches and found...

2009-07-27T22:29:23.175-04:00

I experimented with different approaches and found that it really didn't matter what I called it, if the agent or editor wasn't interested in SFR they weren't interested. Now I just call it what it is, SFR or Futuristic Romance.

Though I've been pretty vocal about SFR breaking out of that big Oort cloud called paranormal romance, until it starts selling better and warps out of its niche status, I don't see that happening.

I think Marilyn summarized the problem in her last statement, except I do think there is potential for SFR to evenutally photon torpedo the vampires. (Make it so, Number One.)

At any rate, the advice given most often at RWA was "write from the heart." I don't think I'll be switching genres no matter how frustrated I get. My heart belongs to SFR.

Ditto what Jess said. I'm quite happy with th...

2009-07-27T20:12:40.842-04:00

Ditto what Jess said.

I'm quite happy with the label SFR. If I call it something else, it doesn't matter. It's still SFR and an editor or reader will like it or not. I'm going with what it is. SFR.
(I can't even label myself as a Futuristic author because I do get into theory/light science/completely made-up techno-waz-its.)

It's really quite simple. If a publisher aske...

2009-07-27T20:07:19.026-04:00

It's really quite simple. If a publisher asked for paranormal romance submissions, they want woo-woo, aka paranormal weird stuff. If they ask for futuristic or sf romance, they want futuristic and sf romance. In requesting submissions, they NEVER mix the two terms.

Most publishers want PNR because it sells very, very well. They don't want sfr because it doesn't.

Several years ago, a major publisher did everything right for a SFR series including a major market push with advertising and buying display space in all the major book chains. The author did everything right including writing incredible books and promoting it with her heart and soul.

The series failed because no one bought it, and the writer is now writing other things.

Labeling terms aren't the problem. Readers who want vampires, not aliens, are the problem.

Thanks for the comments, everyone! I'm out of ...

2009-07-27T20:02:32.376-04:00

Thanks for the comments, everyone! I'm out of town with limited Internet access but I've caught up on reading comments.

@Writer and Cat I agree that the label per se isn't going to make much of a difference. I just wish there was a little more clarity (honesty?) from publishers/agents regarding what they define as paranormal. If certain subgenres aren't selling, fine, but then don't get readers' and authors' hopes up by saying "oh yes, we'll consider paranormal"--because that definition is, like Sharon described, a great big ol' bucket at this point.

@Angelia I agree with your breakdown. Fwiw, I consider steampunk a subgenre of SF despite the many crossovers with fantasy & horror. So for the purpose of this blog I view steampunk romance as another type of SFR. Owned!

Jess, I, too, would also like to see more readers and authors embrace the "science fiction" part of SFR. I have some other thoughts on this issue but I'm saving it for a post in the near future. Maybe next week.

Cathy, the frustrating issue for authors submitting queries is how do they know the best keywords/labels to use? If agents are only scanning letters for "paranormal" and one uses "futuristic", that might represent a lost opportunity--especially if the agent might have kept reading or viewed the query in a different light had one only used "paranormal." It's a tough call.

Susan, good points all.

I'm still revising my SFR, but have found a fe...

2009-07-27T19:28:54.392-04:00

I'm still revising my SFR, but have found a few contests I'd like to enter the opening pages in, but the labels I have to enter under are: in the first contest, Launching A Star; I have to enter it as fantasy/futuristics, which includes urban fantasy, time/dimensional and sci-fi. I guess time/dimensional means time travel? They also have a separate paranormal category. In the other contest, FF&P's On the Far Side contest; my entry would have to be labeled futuristic, but the other categories like fantasy, time travel and erotic are all separate entries, anything else is lumped into paranormal. I really like that, because in most contests, as well as with publishers, those categories all are generally lumped together under the paranormal umbrella.

The hard part is knowing what, exactly, the indust...

2009-07-27T13:36:35.014-04:00

The hard part is knowing what, exactly, the industry folks want when they say they want different and new and not the same old stuff, but not TOO different. And then when you do that, putting in the elements that make yours stand out, you have to figure out what the heck to call it without sounding like an idiot.

I was just discussing labels with my crit partner and decided on staying with the simple SFR or maybe futuristic designation for my story. For fun, we made up a whole new sub-sub genre, but I know not to go *there*. I can't submit it to folks who want paranormals but not SF or I will get pegged as someone who obviously can't read guidelines. The SF factor is there, along with a tinge of Western, but it's not hard SF. Plus, it's an f/f romance. Yes, I realize I've hit the trifecta of difficult placement : ) But I love the story and characters and shall persist.

write, not right, sheesh. I need more sleep.

2009-07-27T11:04:15.197-04:00

write, not right, sheesh. I need more sleep.

Personally, I like the term SFR for what we all ri...

2009-07-27T11:03:05.626-04:00

Personally, I like the term SFR for what we all right. I know some people don't like using that one, because they don't feel certain flavors of science fiction should be called science fiction, and only these flavors of science fiction should be called science fiction. Which is a whole 'nuther can o' worms.

Frankly, I don't care what "flavor" of science fiction it is. If the main storyline deals with science/technology/alien environment that is not medieval in tone or magical in nature, then I say all aboard the SFR train.

We can't complain about the paranormal label until we're all willing as SF writers to join hands and say, "Yeah, that metaphysical element of your alien races is a little on the funky end of things, but you're with me, girlfriend."

I don't know if slapping a different label on ...

2009-07-27T10:59:16.605-04:00

I don't know if slapping a different label on it will garner you any more interest from editors and agents.

Re: pizza -- Some toddlers won't even eat plain pizza! The red sauce (which may have vegetables in it, so EWWW) is touching the BREAD and CHEESE!

I totally agree with there needing to be cross-gen...

2009-07-27T10:49:45.186-04:00

I totally agree with there needing to be cross-genre labels. I have a Roaring 20s swashbuckling paranormal. The supernatural elements are about on a level with Indiana Jones or The Mummy. It's not "Oh, I'm in love with a vampire but he only wants a werewolf!" Or the zombie-fighting steampunk lesbian ranchers: is it a western, a horror, steampunk or f/f? Yes.

I run on the premise paranormal does NOT mean SF/futuristic. Paranormal is horror/urban fantasy, usually contemporary and always with supernatural elemets. SF can have horror elements, but is usually set in the future and usually does not involve the supernatural. Retro-SF/steampunk is another problem.

Wow! This is a great blog entry. You are exactly c...

2009-07-27T10:29:45.418-04:00

Wow! This is a great blog entry. You are exactly correct; all paranormal romances are not created equal. In fact, the are so many sub-genres under the label of science fiction that it has become difficult to categorize and separate who's on first any more. Understanding what publishers are really looking for is also difficult, especially for new authors.

As a first-time published author, check out my recently released novel, Long Journey to Rneadal. This exciting tale is a romantic action adventure in space and is more about the characters than the technology.

Unfortunately, I'm not certain what title I can share with you; however, "Spooky Romance" seems to come to mind. lol!

Great post, Heather. Having written a sci-fi roman...

2009-07-27T02:00:08.325-04:00

Great post, Heather. Having written a sci-fi romance with a race of aliens that are referred to as "ghosts," I strongly identify with the label confusion.

Laurie and I talked about this a number of times at RWA. It's almost like the old term "speculative" has been replaced with "paranormal." It's the bucket for all romance with anything "weird" in it.

But as you point out, not all agents/publishers interested in vampire stories are also interested in sci-fi. When I was querying, I found myself shuffling between the "futuristic," "sci-fi" and "paranormal" labels almost on an agent-by-agent basis. Some agents were clear they didn't want sci-fi. Period. Others distinguished between hard and soft sci-fi.

I'm afraid I'm feeling your pain more than I am offering any answers. Speaking of which, oh lordy do I sympathize with that toddler phase of "please do not mix my foods together or they shall not pass my lips." We have finally given up the battle and started serving her the separate pizza ingredients side-by-side. Oy.